• duringmath 10 hours ago |
    The former Microsoft lawyer leading this prosecution is doing Microsoft's bidding.
    • sverhagen 10 hours ago |
      Wouldn't Microsoft be scared to suffer the same faith, if this were to really happen?
      • duringmath 10 hours ago |
        Microsoft doesn't want Google to control the codebase Edge is based on and doesn't want anyone to counter the MSFT + OpenAI partnership, and the DOJ is trying to hand them their wishes. Hopefully the judge rejects this overreach and rules on lawsuit scope.
        • Grimblewald 9 hours ago |
          preferable would be preventing google+anthropic but also breaking up ms + openai
          • duringmath 9 hours ago |
            Ideally the feds would stay out of it and let the market do its thing.
            • ethbr1 9 hours ago |
              As someone who remembers a time before Google, no.

              Letting "the market do its thing" only works until a few companies accumulate enough power to monopolize the market.

              The last two decades have seen being the next Google transformed into being acquired by Google, which has been to the detriment of everyone.

              • adrr 8 hours ago |
                I remember the time before google. We were all stuck IE with no competitive browsers and everyone was using Windows machines. Now we have three browsers and multiple platforms. I just bought a Chromebook plus, that can run linux apps but is easy enough for my kid to use. My wife uses windows laptop and I use a mac. We have Amazon Echos through out the house. We have 4 major players in the tech space instead of one. Apple, Google, Microsoft and Amazon.
                • ethbr1 8 hours ago |
                  Netscape? IE didn't become dominant until 2000+.

                  And those four players are more of a cartel than competitors, having agreed to mostly stay out of each other's ways.

                  The primary overlapping markets between them are consumptive devices and cloud services -- which I presume they're all in because they consider it strategically important enough to their other businesses to incinerate money.

                  • adrr 3 hours ago |
                    Apple and Google makes phones. All of them make tablets. Microsoft and Apple make laptops. All but Apple sell cloud computing. Google, Apple and Microsoft have office suites. Apple, Amazon and Google offer paid streaming platforms. Amazon, Apple and Google All offer smart assistants. I can keep going with things like game platforms, consumer storage,streaming music. Failing to see how they stay out of each other's way or have agreements with each other. Apple and Google literally give away their office apps which is the bread butter of Microsoft,
          • inlined 8 hours ago |
            Doubt that’s on the table unless Microsoft is also sued. Without a joint ruling this wouldn’t be balanced
            • Grimblewald 7 hours ago |
              Doesn't mean we

              a) can't hope

              b) shouldn't hope

      • lmm 9 hours ago |
        The status quo is bad for Microsoft, anything with the potential to shake it up is worth doing. And they'd get a head start.
    • karaterobot 8 hours ago |
      I'm sorry, you're alleging that someone who used to work for Microsoft, but doesn't anymore, is ... well, still secretly working for Microsoft? Like, he's a spy inside the DOJ, but you've figured out his clever game? I don't understand.
      • vlovich123 8 hours ago |
        A common argument is that former corporate insiders remain loyal to their former employers once in positions of authority in the government so as to obtain lucrative positions once their time in government ends. It’s also possible there are corrupt private contracts in place to entice those actions.

        I’m not sure why you’re being so sarcastic as it’s not a novel idea and it’s less “figured out the clever game” and more that even the appearance of impropriety removes faith and trust in the institution.

        • vinay427 8 hours ago |
          > even the appearance of impropriety removes faith and trust in the institution.

          This seems like a nuanced and reasonable take, but a rather generous interpretation of the GP comment. I think it’s reasonable for the parent comment to push back against a definitive statement laying an accusation with no evidence.

      • justinclift an hour ago |
        Interestingly, that same argument was made for Nokia and in the end seems like it was probably true in that specific case.
  • daft_pink 9 hours ago |
    does anyone else think that trump is going to nix this thing as soon as he takes office?
    • duringmath 9 hours ago |
      We can hope, his DOJ might amend their demands or the judges he appoints will overturn it on appeal if needed.
    • Handy-Man 9 hours ago |
      Not really. He and his backers actually want this to happen to GOOG.
    • ocdtrekkie 9 hours ago |
      So it's hard to say, Trump hates Google, Gaetz hated Google, I assume any Trumpist (I guess it's Bondi now) thinks Google is "unfair to conservatives". So it's easy to imagine letting Google reap the penalties of the existing case being an easy choice for them.

      On the other hand, he's promised to remove Khan, Kanter, etc, and end antitrust enforcement. So someone may have to actively decide to continue as is, or change tack a bit.

      The third concern of course is that Trump is a crook. He might not like Google but I'm sure neither him nor Sundar would have any qualms with figuring out how to slide a billion dollars in Trump's pocket to make the case go away.

    • JumpCrisscross 9 hours ago |
      No. They’ll change the settlement terms, however, to probably include their priorities.
    • blackeyeblitzar 9 hours ago |
      I hope not. An important part of encouraging innovation in tech is to take power away from the megacorps that will otherwise use their capital and distribution channels and illegitimate practices (like bundling) to control everything and take all the gains. These actions from Lina Khan, the DOJ, the EU commissions, etc are crucial to creating a fair landscape for competition.
      • hobs 9 hours ago |
        Trump took net neutrality off the table, he only wanted to punish big tech for perceived slights or not supporting him enough, he's famous for putting people with no knowledge of the problems or experience with them in power managing them.

        What exactly would be driving your hopes here?

        • lolinder 9 hours ago |
          Maybe the fact that Trump's DOJ started this lawsuit, backed by the Republican Attorneys General for 11 states that Trump won this year?

          What exactly is driving you to think that he'd abort a mission that he and his allies started?

          • throw16180339 8 hours ago |
            Everything else is for sale in his administration, so I don't see why this wouldn't be.
        • anonandy42 2 hours ago |
          I had to create an account to ask you this point blank.

          Why are you acting like taking Net Neutrality rules off the table is a bad thing? Have you read what is in the Net Neutrality rules? Or are you just regurgitating what the news and your favorite tubers of the time were telling you to do?

          I read through 100 of the 400 pages, that was enough to make me sick. I was disgusted at the crap in there. A full 2/3rds of the rules I viewed were terrible. Many of those rules clearly existed only to enshrine the largest of players from ever being challenged or having any competition. I'm convinced anybody who speaks in favor of Net Neutrality is ignorant and hasn't bothered to read any of the guidelines contained therein. I can't be convinced that any intelligent free thinking consumer would ever want that drek to exist and am appalled that it has any defenders at all.

    • zeroonetwothree 9 hours ago |
      The case started under Trump so probably not
    • lolinder 9 hours ago |
      No. This case was launched by Trump's DOJ in 2020 [0], in conjunction with the Republican Attorneys General representing a bunch of states that Trump won handily this election. Trump's Attorney General Barr released a statement when they announced the lawsuit [1]:

      > Today, millions of Americans rely on the Internet and online platforms for their daily lives. For years, there have been broad, bipartisan concerns about business practices leading to massive concentrations of economic power in our digital economy. Hearing those concerns, I have made it a primary commitment of my tenure as Attorney General for the Department of Justice to examine whether technology markets have been deprived of free, fair, and open competition.

      This case has never has been a partisan issue. It was opened by a Republican DOJ and pushed through by a Democratic DOJ, and there's no reason to believe that the Republicans won't see through what they started.

      [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Google_LLC_(2...

      [1] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/statement-attorney-general-an...

      • kolinko 8 hours ago |
        oh wow, TIL. I assumed Trump would be against any government control of Big Tech
        • mvdtnz 7 hours ago |
          That's a weird thing to say. Trump has always been critical of big tech and favours breaking them up.

          https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-tech-factbox/fa...

          https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/6/10/18659748/t...

          • toyg 3 hours ago |
            Trump is critical of big tech that doesn't help him - I'm happy to bet he will oppose breaking up X as long as Musk is in his cabinet.

            Trying to describe Trump on a coherent ideological level is a fool's errand, like most strongmen he's just an opportunist.

            • robertlagrant 2 hours ago |
              Why would you break up X?
            • wil421 2 hours ago |
              Why would X be broken up? When I think of Big Tech I certainly don’t think of companies like Twitter or Snapchat.
            • llamaimperative 24 minutes ago |
              More informatively: Trump was in favor of eliminating Section 230 protections for Twitter after they fact-checked one of his lies about election security.

              Presumably he will now want to revoke Section 230 for non-Twitter companies.

      • leptons 8 hours ago |
        >and pushed through by a Democratic DOJ,

        Suggesting that Merrick Garland is somehow a "Democratic DOJ" is kind of laughable at this point. He's a Republican. He's been dragging his feet going after the biggest Republican crook in history. Appointing Merrick Garland is one of the biggest mistakes Biden ever made.

        • sigh_again 4 hours ago |
          Adorable how HN's in absolute denial over this comment and downvoting you.

          Garland is a donator to the Federalist Society. Garland was a gift from Obama to the Republicans, trying to put someone who's right wing enough at the Supreme Court to appease the Rs. (And it didn't even work).

    • xyst 9 hours ago |
      Google just needs to deposit a few million into an offshore account and this will disappear into the ether.

      Then administration will throw so much “anti woke” shit and the average American will forget about it.

    • nine_zeros 8 hours ago |
      > does anyone else think that trump is going to nix this thing as soon as he takes office?

      Depends on how much Google is willing to scratch Trump's back. Remember, Trump is a corrupt quid pro quo President. All he needs is something valuable in exchange for his corrupt powers.

    • tjpnz 8 hours ago |
      If Sundar flatters him enough.
  • infotainment 9 hours ago |
    It really feels like the DOJ has it out for Google here. Apple's behavior is far more monopolistic, and Microsoft is no saint either.
    • klysm 9 hours ago |
      Maybe? Any regulation is very welcomed in this area
      • infotainment 9 hours ago |
        Weirdly selective regulation that punishes one company arbitrarily while ignoring others feels like a step in the wrong direction. We need actual laws about this, not various capricious enforcement of haphazard existing regulations.
        • mu53 8 hours ago |
          They need wins, and once the ball starts rolling, they can shift their focus. Government departments are restricted by budget. Going after 4 behemoths at the same time is not practical.

          If google gets restrictions, then it makes apple look even more monopolistic. Like a trimming the hedges

      • myworkinisgood 9 hours ago |
        Actually not. Punishing the smaller company while allowing big company to run amok is essentially making things even worse.
        • ethbr1 8 hours ago |
          > smaller company

          That's a weirdly specific way to label the 5th largest public company on the planet, by market cap.

          ... yes, it is smaller than the 2nd largest public company.

          • adrr 8 hours ago |
            2nd one has screwed over consumers in the past and continues to screw over consumers. Can you even buy MS office any more or do you have to rent it now? What’s with putting ads in the software you purchased?
          • creato 8 hours ago |
            It's not just apple, basically every company that is bigger than google is going to benefit from this. Apple, Microsoft, even Nvidia is getting their only real competitor and the biggest company that isn't dependent on them (google TPUs) kneecapped.
            • ethbr1 8 hours ago |
              I look forward to running my searches through Saudi Aramco.
              • creato 8 hours ago |
                You joke, yet a Saudi PIF company will probably try to buy Chrome if Google is forced to sell it.
    • strongpigeon 9 hours ago |
      But there is an antitrust lawsuit against Apple and Microsoft is getting probed by the FTC regarding their cloud business.
    • lolinder 9 hours ago |
      The DOJ can go after more than one company at a time. And they are, in fact, doing so:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_(2024)

      • dazilcher an hour ago |
        The DoJ does not have unlimited resources, nor does it have unlimited time - see imminent regime and policy change.

        Priority matters, and picking Google as the first high profile target is bizarre.

    • wbl 9 hours ago |
      In order to say Apple is a monopoly you need to define a very narrow market. The search market is obviously relevant and very dominated by Google.
      • tremarley 2 hours ago |
        Google claims their in the ad market. Not the search market.
    • ezfe 8 hours ago |
      That's why they're also suing apple
    • TheDong 8 hours ago |
      I remain utterly confused how apple's rule that you can't link to a purchase page, and can't mention the 30% tax in-app, hasn't had its day in court yet.

      Like, you can have a free app in the store, with a website where you can purchase premium, and then in the app have an "upgrade" button that just displays the error "You cannot upgrade to premium in the app" and hope users find your website.

      You aren't allowed to have "You can upgrade to premium using our site, at https://site.com" message because if you can pay money on site.com, having that error message is seen as evading the app store tax.

      In both of those cases though, apple did the same amount of work, so the justification you sometimes hear, that "30% is fair because you're paying for app store resources and apple to advertise your app", seems like it doesn't really apply.

      Like, spotify is a perfect example of this. They don't let you upgrade on iOS because paying 30% to apple would mean they'd lose money on every sell (music has very thin margins), and spotify isn't even allowed to display a good error message because linking to their webpage, or mentioning the app store tax, would be against app store ToS.

      And then apple music also exists, and ignores the 30% tax. It seems so blindingly obviously harmful to consumers.

      This all applies to the google play app store too, but at least on the google play app store, there's no "thought crime" of informing your users they can go punch in a credit card on the web.

    • tivert 7 hours ago |
      > It really feels like the DOJ has it out for Google here. Apple's behavior is far more monopolistic, and Microsoft is no saint either.

      As others have mentioned, the government can do more than one thing at a time. Here is a list: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/business/antitrust-.... Perhaps Google's case had just progressed faster, and perhaps it was more clear-cut or easier to prove.

      Google's records retention policies were also over the top and perhaps hurt it: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/20/technology/google-antitru...:

      > But Google has faced the broadest criticism for its actions, with the judges in all three antitrust cases chastising the company for its communications practices.

      And they engaged in some pretty sketchy practices:

      > If using the right words and deleting messages did not keep Google out of the courthouse, the company concluded, invoking the lawyers would....

      > A message surfaced in the Epic trial in which a Google lawyer identified the practice of copying lawyers on documents as “fake privilege” and seemed rather amused by it. Mr. Walker said he was “disappointed” and “surprised” to hear that term....

      > Last month, three advocacy groups, led by the American Economic Liberties Project, asked for Mr. Walker to be investigated by the California State Bar for coaching Google to “engage in widespread and illegal destruction” of documents relevant to federal trials.

      • frognumber 3 hours ago |
        <--- This. And specifically:

        > Google's records retention policies were also over the top and perhaps hurt it: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/20/technology/google-antitru...:

        If you're intentionally hiding things from government investigators, the legal presumption is there's a good reason. Judges are allowed to impute things from destroyed evidence. Otherwise, everyone would destroy evidence.

  • bg24 9 hours ago |
    Hope this gets nixed. It might be a relevant case back in 2020, but no longer a valid case now. From the wikipedia case:

    "The suit alleges that Google has violated the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890 by illegally monopolizing the search engine and search advertising markets, most notably on Android devices, as well as with Apple and mobile carriers."

    Where will be the search monopoly by Google in 2025? If search monopoly slowly evaporates, where will be the advertising monopoly?

    • ethbr1 8 hours ago |
      Google's entire argument against being regulated has been 'We're not monopolizing search, people choose to use us!'

      The latter part also happens to conveniently be true when you buy all the available space that a competitor would need -- default placement in Chrome, Safari, Firefox, and Android.

      You don't get to rig the game and then claim the results actually demonstrate everyone naturally loves you.

      • pcr0 8 hours ago |
        On the flip side, if default placement was eliminated and browsers asked users which search engine they'd like on first launch...I still believe most users would pick Google anyway and the main loser would be Firefox as search engine placement is the majority of their revenue.

        Furthermore, ChatGPT reaching 100m users in 2 months also suggests that browser placement isn't the biggest factor into where users send their queries.

        • eviks 7 hours ago |
          "Most" isn't relevant here, if share goes down from 90% to 51% - monopoly problem solved.

          Same with the factors- ok, let it be the second-biggest factor, so?

          • Ferret7446 5 hours ago |
            You are being extremely optimistic with that number. I would put it around 80-85%.

            Google search usage is not going to drop 50% just because it's not the default.

            • eviks 5 hours ago |
              You misunderstand the meaning of that number, it wasn't a forecast
  • patrickhogan1 8 hours ago |
    This is starting to get ridiculous.
    • dmix 8 hours ago |
      Maybe it's like what the FBI does, when they go for you it doesn't matter if they win for the original primary reason because they'll find something to get you with and you'll negotiate down to some form of them winning.
      • kolinko 8 hours ago |
        Sometimes it ends up with US government splitting businesses - like Bell being split into AT&T and the others 50 years ago
    • frognumber 3 hours ago |
      Why? Genuine question.

      To me, it doesn't feel extreme at all, relative to former antitrust regulations or to what's needed for a functioning market. I would have felt bad about these about two decades ago, but Google has not been a good player in recent years.

      Geopolitically, it feels off.

  • friedtofu 8 hours ago |