That’s why we created: The Continue and Persist Letter. A official-looking legal letter that encourages and uplifts people, one that tells people to keep doing what they’re doing! Surprise someone you appreciate by sending them a Continue and Persist Letter.
You all haven't trademarked the idea, have you? I think I'll just write a few of these up myself and send them out.
I don't think that word means what you think it means...
I'm not OP, and I'm no lawyer, but I'm sure you're free to try this concept for yourself.
Three ways to protect IP
Trademark is for logos and names Parents are for methods and inventions Copyright is for works of art and writing
They might be able to trademark the phrase "continue and persist", but it's not likely. If they had they would have put a little TM or (r) next to it.
It's not sufficiently original to qualify for copyright protection.
And it's so far from being patentable I hope I don't have to explain why.
- a trademark may be claimed with TM even if not registered. A trademark registered with, and accepted by, USPTO should use circle R.
- these folks hold the copyright on their specific letter. Avoid infringement (and potential negative legal ramifications) by not reproducing their letter. This is not limited to photocopying a physical paper. Retyping verbatim will infringe.
- the concept itself cannot be protected with existing (US) intellectual property law.
- The service name “continue and persist” is probably trademarkable by them if they wanted (assuming it’s not already in use). And as you point out, formal registration wouldn’t be necessary, although it does come with various benefits. Doing so could block someone from creating a similar service with the same or confusingly similar name.
- For copyright, reproduction doesn’t have to be verbatim to infringe. The standard is typically substantial similarity. So you couldn’t just change a few words here or there in the letter.
- Publicly disclosed concepts can be protected under US law, but you have to go through patent law. Haven’t done a prior art search, but seems unlikely that there’s much patentable here. There is also the section 101 (abstract idea) issue, but that is hard to evaluate without looking at the exact patent claims at issue.
I would say the same thing about a lot of things the USPTO has handed out patents for. At this point, it wouldn't surprise me if someone could obtain a patent for this, if the patent application was written the right way. Whether such a patent would hold up in court is an entirely different question.
I appreciate the clarification in this and the comments below, but yeah, it was meant to be tongue in cheek.
Agreed. I don’t know what other junk mail will be included, nor how my recipient’s data will be used.
the tinfoil hat probably isn't warranted in this case, but as a general principle, I try to let my friends make their own decisions around privacy.
No they are not. I don't know why you and people keep telling me this. You can try to look up my address and if you're doing it on the internet with some stupid private, non-governmental institutions and data brokers that collected data without my consent, you're likely to only find a bunch of addresses associated with my name that are NOT actually where I live.
Just look at OP's comment history, one example:
> I absolutely love making chrome extensions - my very first one was creating an extension for tinder.com that would swipe left on anyone with the first name Chad
All they require here is your name and email, and the recipient's name and address. Both are (probably) public somewhere and in combination are almost certainly still worthless (or certainly worth less than the postage they're giving to you for free)
It won't have the same effect if you just download a PDF, print it out, and mail it in a generic envelope with a handwritten address on it.
> We may share Your information with Our business partners to offer You certain products, services or promotions.
Which somewhat takes the shine off this in my opinion.
(That, and also: How hard is it to post a letter yourself?)
This seems like a clever way to collect valid mailing addresses. People are also likely to include personal information in their praise messages, which could be valuable data.
Their Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy state they reserve the right to share collected information with service providers, business partners, and affiliates. They can use your data for "other purposes" including "data analysis" and "identifying trends." They can share your information with "business partners to offer you certain products, services or promotions."
*ianal
A USPS Forever Stamp is $0.73. Unless yall are rolling in VC funds or a lot of extra cash, a few hundred or even thousand orders is going to nuke the entire idea.
Are you still going to harvest and use all of the collected data of people who never got anything mailed?
If this was publicly available document so I could fill in the missing bits, I'd send a dozen of these tomorrow.
I'm sure no one at Yahoo actually thought or had any plan for all of that personal data to be data mined wholesale by Verizon a decade later. And nobody at Google right now believes all that data could be sold to Comcast or whatever. But things happen and then...
What's their privacy policy?
Have we reached peak data privacy paranoia? Harmless lil projects that harken back to the good ol' days of the internet are somehow actually devious PII honeypots?
Why do people think their data is so valuable on its own without being connected to their actual consumer related behavior? Truly, what is a name and address worth vs. anonymous user on smart TV id_8z6748dxzh watched 3 hours of Hoarders on Amazon Prime, skipped 85% of ads, but did not skip 50% of ads relating to early onset male pattern baldness, and resides in Ohio?
We somehow both overestimate and underestimate the value of our personal data. Which leads to unwarranted paranoia in inappropriate contexts and alarming indifference in the most common but mundane contexts.
I've work in ad tech,and with CDPs for nearly 20 years.
It isn't paranoia when the threat is real.
> We may share Your information with Our business partners to offer You certain products, services or promotions.
> To provide You with news, special offers and general information about other goods, services and events which we offer that are similar to those that you have already purchased or enquired about unless You have opted not to receive such information.
Safe assumptions with most any "tech" industry company or individual now are that they will behave completely like sociopaths when it comes to personal data.
It's so baked into "tech" culture now, even people who may be ethically inclined don't recognize it as a problem.
So I object to blaming the victim, or gaslighting, suggesting that people who are aware of this crisis of widespread antisocial behavior are being paranoid.
But it’s hard to have a conversation about appropriate calibration of what is private, and what are reasonable expectations, when extremists from both pro-privacy and scorched-earth commerce are so strident.
You'll have to forgive those of us who simply want to remain safe.
Currently: a letter choosing formal legal vocabulary (/s) to create social network metadata, endorse human activity ("you'd like the recipient to continue doing"), disclose someone else's physical address and record the interaction in the national postal system.
Future, https://continueandpersist.org/terms-of-service-privacy-poli...
We may share Your personal information in the following situations:
For business transfers: We may share or transfer Your personal information in connection with, or during negotiations of, any merger, sale of Company assets, financing, or acquisition of all or a portion of Our business to another company.
With business partners: We may share Your information with Our business partners to offer You certain products, services or promotions.What we have reached is peak neoliberalism.
1. The site was never going to scale. The guys are printing physical letters and hand-inserting them in envelopes with stamps, for free!
2. So some entrepreneurial folks on the internet have gathered a hundred physical addresses, and they know a self-reported name and IP address, and maybe some persistent cookie info about a human that might be the first person’s friend. So what? Go bring up https://www.beenverified.com You can gather more info there in 15 minutes than the Continue and Persist guys will get over their whole project.
3. Learn to recognize a fun project that was done out of kindness and a spirit of adventure! Yeah maybe they should have not put up the language of “we get to sell your data if somebody offers to buy our web site”. But so what! The whole thing is just a kind adventure that brought a smile to the faces of some strangers, and will never be more than that. I appreciate it!
As insidious as data harvesting is, I am even less of a fan of the pearl clutching / performative cynicism that is so popular these days.
Why yes, when I say “good morning” to the barista who hands my my coffee, it is possible that the shop is recording me and will use my voice in an elaborate voice cloning scam to get grandma to transfer her life savings to Nigeria.
But breathlessly alerting me to this impending disaster and soberly advising me to never use my voice in public is not going to impress me.
These things can be done at massive scales cheaply.
> for free!
That increases my level of concern, not decreases.
> Yeah maybe they should have not put up the language of “we get to sell your data if somebody offers to buy our web site”.
Maybe? What the heck do they need the data for a second after they sent the envelope?
> But so what!
So they don’t get my friends addresses. So that.
> The whole thing is just a kind adventure that brought a smile to the faces of some strangers, and will never be more than that.
You say that. But that is at contention here.
After collecting data content for the physical letters with a commercial survey/marketing website.
It is: you can click on 'WRITE YOUR OWN CONTINUE AND PERSIST HERE!'[1] to be sent to a Google Doc with the template.
[1]: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_Um9z87Zv_zLRZRRHpii-Mwm...
My job puts me on the receiving end of a lot of gratitude, and I absolutely adore it. It's one of the main perks of the job. After experiencing it, I have become a lot more lavish in my praise, and frequently email people to thank them for their work. Most of them are very appreciative of it, especially when they make their work freely available.
>> I’ve done this about 20 times. I never got a response only once or twice, but the rest responded warmly. Many of these people have turned into friends. We actually call each other on the phone and shoot the shit. A couple of them have even turned into best friends.
more here: https://sive.rs/2020-04-email
To tie the back to a HN context - this works great for academic papers. I've had some great email exchanges from original authors including a few people I've absolutely idolised. Turns out they're human too.
It sure does.
And lack of gratitude goes a long way in the wrong direction. Big time demotivator.
Continue - hold together (cum + tenere -- same root as contain)
Proceed - go forward (pro + cedere)
“Cease and desist” has nice assonance, I feel “pursue and persist” matches a little more in that regard, though both are decent.
As regards meaning, “proceed” and “pursue” are both good, taking slightly different angles but to essentially the same purpose.
When people share their address with businesses, they are generally protected under laws like GDPR and CCPA.
OP’s site seems a bit hosed at the moment so I can’t dig into their privacy policy and see how they handle GDPR and CCPA deletion requests.
Only in the EU or California.
I am no lawyer. Before collecting data, better talk to one.
Lmao what explain your math
Sent one to my college roommate and sat quietly while he got home from class and checked his email. He obviously started panicking until the link in the email revealed the joke. He didn’t think it was funny and swore cold blooded revenge that I’ve yet to receive. Still keep one eye open at night.
You’re receiving it right now. It’s the uncertainty, the uneasiness you have to carry with you every day, that is the revenge.
Thank you for running this service! I'll pay it forward when things recover.
Dear sir, you must feel privilaged to receave a letter from someone as important and distingushed as me. It was well earned and deserved i assure you (which is the best kind of assurance) It of course pains me greatly to see my greatness overshadowed but there is joy in being reduced to an observer in awe.....
Ill let myself out
But! I don't love the idea of sending PII for friends and family to an unknown source in order to facilitate this.
You can ask your friendly neighborhood LLM for a template and go to town!
"I'd like to create a positive spin on "Cease & Desist" letters for the holidays that I could send to friends. Let's call them a "Continue & Persist" letter.
How can I make something cute and uplifting that I could send to friends for the holidays. I guess I need some personalization options like name, and one thing I'd like them to continue doing (optional).
Can you help me create an official looking, but fun form letter that I can fill in the send to people? Thank you!"
---
[Your Name or Family Name]
Department of Holiday Joy & Encouragement
[Your Address or City, if desired]
[Date]
OFFICIAL NOTICE
Re: Continue & Persist Order
Dear [Recipient's Name],
In the spirit of the holidays and in recognition of your outstanding contributions to the world, the Department of Holiday Joy & Encouragement has issued this Continue & Persist order for you.
This order officially requires you to continue being your amazing self and persist in spreading joy and kindness throughout the year. Please note the following specifics of your order:
1. You must continue to [something wonderful they do, e.g., make everyone laugh, inspire others, or bake the best cookies]. Your efforts in this area have been truly exceptional and have brought countless smiles.
2. Under no circumstances are you to cease being the incredible [friend/parent/artist/etc.] that you are.
3. This order is valid indefinitely and cannot be revoked (even if you try to protest with modesty).
Failure to comply with this order will result in an overflow of love, gratitude, and probably more letters like this one.
We at the Department of Holiday Joy & Encouragement commend your contributions to making life brighter and sincerely hope you have the happiest of holidays.
Warm regards,
[Your Name or Family Name]
Director of Holiday Cheer
"stuff related to getting paid for things I invented…."
Never got anything serious from them as most were “we’ve update some random piece of info on your profile” notifications, but still made me nervous every time.
Having received actual legal letters before, my personal experience is that I would much rather receive normal looking holiday cards to encourage me in continuing whatever I was doing, rather than being surprised by official-looking letters.
It might be different if this service offered help in other ways, but currently it seems like a practical joke of dubious taste.
But in reality people will form an emotional response just based on the appearance of it. And even after they read it they might be left perplexed and some might spend further resources to figure out if this is a legal threat in some way.
I would find such a letter in incredibly bad taste, and think of whoever sent it to me or caused it to be sent worse than before.
Is it worth the risk that someone would find it "incredibly bad taste" (parent post, not yours)? Obviously humour is subjective, but perhaps such people need to have their Sense of Humour shifted, Overton-window style.
The point is not that you need to know the recipient, but that if you don’t know them you can’t say if they will enjoy this kind of humour or not.
I know people for whom such a letter would be the highlight of their day. I know people who would be worried about it for days if not weeks. Without knowing your audience you can’t know who will react how.
> Is it worth the risk that someone would find it "incredibly bad taste" (parent post, not yours)?
Is it? Depends on how much you care how much you care about being an asshole accidentally.
I have friends who we play pranks on each other where we sneak up on the other and do a jumpscare. Would never do the same with a random person though.
This is the equivalent action, but instead of threatening people with bodily harm it is threatening them in a legal/bureaucratic way.
> Obviously humour is subjective
Yes.
> perhaps such people need to have their Sense of Humour shifted, Overton-window style
Or maybe your sense of empathy needs adjusting. The problem is not with their sense of humour but with their sense of “how likely it is that an official looking letter is bringing ruin on me”. I’m glad that you feel secure enough that you can’t even understand that feeling.
I remember one time having a super helpful person at Home Depot walk me through a home project I needed some advice on so I asked to talk to their manager to compliment/thank them.
After a few minutes the manager came over and looked so ready for me to berate them about something only to look incredibly shocked that I was actually complimenting the service I had just received. Was nice for everyone.
I've heard too many horror stories about employees/stores getting punished when you give them 4 out of 5 stars since (according to upper management) it implies that something was less than perfect.
— Now we’re talking. What is it?
— I want to complain you’re not taking my suggestions seriously.
i sent an email to ko-fi thru 2 different channels, with loom, cc'd boondoggle...
hope everyone comes back to donate once it gets fixed.
Little efforts like this help even things out
On the other hand, I can't blame people for it either, since it's equally tiresome to be world-inclusive by saying "This is for an northern American audience" at the top of each website that requires it. If only there were some way to un-obnoxiously denote this ... <cough> TLDs <cough> ...
I mean, I love the sentiment. It's a cute idea.
But something that on first look looks ike another legalese quagmire on my desk would raise my blood pressure way beyond what my doctor tells me is healthy. By the time I realised this was meant as an encouragement, the damage would already have been done.
Maybe show appreciation in something that masquerades less as yet another fire to put out.
My father was diagnosed with liver cancer about a month ago, and I have had a rough time of it since. I needed this positivity in my life.
Thank you for reminding me of the good in the world; sometimes we all need a dose of that.
If I can buy you guys beers, please don’t hesitate to reach out. I’d love to help build some future boondoggles. :)
Email is in my profile. (The irony of my domain being owlpost.lol is not lost on me haha)
On April 12, 2024, Chang issued a public apology regarding the issue on his podcast, The Dave Chang Show, stating that Momofuku had not intended to upset with their legal actions, and noted that Momofuku would no longer attempt to enforce the trademark.
The person you responded to is providing additional context regarding David Chang. His name might not be familiar to readers as someone who is famous for sending large volumes of cease and desist letters.
He is mentioned in the very first sentence of this HN post:
> Every day, thousands of Cease and Desist letters are issued, telling people to stop what they’re doing (Looking at you, David Chang). What a bummer!
There is seldom a flutter of thanks—-rarely does anyone come to me saying, “Splendid!”
Yet, the day continues, operated by a calendar.
The lack of thanks does not make me anxiouz, but I continue on my journey because I signed up—to create. Create something out of thin air, something out of my figment of imagination.
But there are moments where I am vulnerable, alone. In those moments, I look for a post-it where it says, “Continue and Persist.”
Thanks for creating this. I’ll wait for this. Maybe someone, someday.
I can see why they would have this restriction, but there IS a payment option, so they could offer it with whatever feels is required. Still, all the best US cousins!
Our legal dept (person) did this in 2007 and it made me so happy.
I was wondering for EU, could I get the document template.
Of course the SMS is discontinued because of costs but the idea still exists.
Also, 1 typo to fix ('acknoledgement' on homepage: https://triplechecker.com/s/771583/continueandpersist.org)
The small space on the post card for writing means you can usually only fit a few sentences in (keeping the time investment short) and you don't even need to fold up the letter into an envelope. You can start with a few post cards bought from a gift shop, and if you like the habit, you can get themed boxes of 100 postcards from an online retailer for $20. (e.g. birds, or cats, or Disney Princesses).
If you like my work, say so on social media. That does way more for me than this novelty panic-inducing letter.
1. It comes from your heart.
2. You don't leak PII to internet randos.
3. It shows you put some thought into it.
4. Writing letters is fun, and the post office needs all the help and support it can get. While you're at it, why don't you give THOSE folks some praise, too?
5. A personalized letter doesn't look like something official and frightening. Seriously, you're underestimating how many people this is going to unnecessarily scare, at a time when our institutions are failing more and more.
Maybe we don't need to automate away every last bit of being human.