This has happened (and still happens often) a lot, in different social circles, with people of diverse backgrounds. So, I figure it's not that I hang out with rude people, the problem must be me. I think the saddest part of all this is that even my wife's attention drifts off most of the time I try to talk to her.
I know it's not a language barrier issue, and I know for sure I enunciate my words well. I wonder though if the issue may be that I have a weak voice, or just an overall weak presence/body language. How can that be improved, if that's the case?
If someone is genuinely interested in what you have to say, they will actively seek and ask, right? They would include you in the conversation.
Sorry if it's not much help. Trust your intuition, and forgive yourself. Time sorts things out.
E.g. I'm having a conversation with a hw engineer: (all imaginary below, but the main situation does happen every once in a while)
> Me: This USB hub you designed seems to work on my Dell Desktop, but not on my HP laptop. Can you take a look at it?
> HW Eng: Sure. But could it be a problem with the laptop? Maybe it's not my design's fault.
> Me: Come on, it's an off the shelf laptop. We can't write in the user manual that users shouldn't use HP laptops, haha.
> Hw Eng: Haha, okay, let me check it.
> Random guy: Haha, I just sent my Asus tablet for warranty repair, you shouldn't buy Asus.
They want other people's attention.
If you want people to care about what you say, say things they care about...say things that show you care about what they have to say.
Because if what comes out of your mouth suggests you were just waiting for an opening to talk about yourself, people will tune out...unless of course they give you what you want.
Be fun to talk to. The more fun you are to talk to the more you will enjoy conversations. Good luck.
Talk with the person, talk to the person. Don't talk at the other person.
But then I guess the post's contents are rather asking how to have an actual conversation with anyone, including your life partner! Which seems so weird that I doubt we can play therapist over the internet to a useful enough degree and the better solution is to ask $wife (and the friends OP is talking about in 1:1 private conversation) what the thing is OP does that makes them uninterested
I know someone who has trouble with this as well (saying things that seem irrelevant to the conversation, but if you wait and let them speak, it'll become clear... but people don't), but the question they ask is not how to command people but how find people that fit you and/or how to fit in with other people, which very much depends on the individual situation and takes lots of conversation to untangle
But Stifler is still the character I remember the most.
There is lot unsaid here, so its really difficult to know exactly what your issue is.
This might be low brow, but could you potentially record yourself and play it back? Maybe looking over your own shoulder, you can see things you missed in the moment.
If you’re not saying anything that others can jump off from… then you can’t expect them to. Use a question sandwich: someone is talking about a place you’ve visited. You can then interject with “Oh you’ve been to Taipei? The hike to Elephant Mountain was incredible! What was your favourite part of the city?”
You don’t use the word “I”, and you pass the ball back to whomever was speaking. You brought fuel to the bonfire. You stoked it. If anyone concurs they’ll let the group know. If anyone else wants to jump in you’ve given them an opening. And the person you interrupted can either use your interjection to add to their story or they can keep going, but you didn’t prevent them from telling the story.
If instead you just say “Oh I’ve been to Taipei too” or “I really don’t like that show”, now you’ve put the burden of maintaining the bonfire on the person you interrupted. They have to now ask when, how long, did you like it, why not, etc.
I’m not saying OP was making these mistakes, but I’ve noticed these kind of patterns often. People love to talk, especially about themselves. Let them.
Good luck :)
> someone says something I find relatable
That's a key point. You're seeing things you find interesting as opportunities to add to the conversation. Flip this around, try to look for things that others would find interesting.
Hard disagree. Don't try to be someone you are not. The most interesting TED talks are not held because the speaker found a topic you are interested in. They exist because the speaker has a fascination about something that he explored and now talks about. Often this fascination is infectious and because the speaker has a way of explaining it, and talking that catches your attention. This would probably not interest you as much, if the speaker would not find it interesting.
Talk about things you like, not what you think other people like. If your friends are bored by that, then it's perhaps time to find friends that aren't.
I merely pointed out something that helped me: instead of sharing tidbits that amount to "I find this relatable because...", I realized that when I came from a place more like "You all might find this interesting because..." people responded better.
Pass the ball if u want the ball. It's a team sport.
Be brief and on point.
Use your emotions.
Listen.
I see a lot of emphasis on the tone and pacing, the music of your speech.
I can't vouch for anything he says but he seems to be recapping essentially common sense points, so i wouldn't reckon he's totally off.
For practice: for a year, don't say a word.
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influen...
EDIT: added link
Try to observe how groups interact - unless someone is exceptionally important (leader, famous or very charismatic person) people just chatter in short chunks, exchanging low stakes, often meaningless, remarks, as well as lots of laughs, little jokes, noises like ehrm, oooh, uhm, without anyone getting much of an opportunity to convey anything significant. That's just how group interaction works on average.
If you lower your expectations and focus on just maintaining a fun and positive interaction with the group, you'll be less frustrated, more confident, and maybe you'll also find it easier to get a message across in the rare case where it's really worth it.
If consistently having meaningful information-dense interactions is very important to you, you may want to focus on finding groups that prioritize this sort of interaction. They are really quite rare, but look for meetups of like-minded people who want to have a deep discussion of a specific topic, for example.
This will be hard to find out on your own or asking online. Find a friend and try to get them to talk to you about this, this can be difficult, but if you try to make clear in a one on one conversation that you're suffering from this and you need their honest opinion, it would probably help.
Another great thing for me is to shift the focus on to the person you're speaking with, even in a group. People love to talk about themselves. Ask them honest, thoughtful questions about what they're talking about. Don't over indulge them, but everyone is equal in this world, and hearing them out on things leads to a healthy discourse.
One final tip and this is important, if they talk about a trip to the Bahamas or whatever and you then feel the urge to bring up your similar trip to the Bahamas, maybe don't. Instead of hearing their point of view, you're making the conversation about you immediately and people don't like that. You can hold that thought and bring it up later in the conversation, organically.
This!
If you've been to the Bahamas and know a cool place, you can for example just ask "oh have you been to place X?", which implies that you've been there and know a cool thing, plays the ball back to the person telling the story, but still leaves the door open for them to hand the conversation to you (e.g. "what's place X?", "where is X located?", "when were you on the Bahamas?", etc.).
What helped me a lot were 2 things:
1) There are ways to improve your conversation skills. Big topic, with lots of branches. Your speech matters. Your tone. Keep collecting interesting anecdotes. Culture some depth to your personality that is unrelated to work (e.g. interesting hobbies). Essentially train your charisma.
2) The big eye opener for me was the discovery that different groups of people actually react differently to me. I.e. I was simply friends with people who ... didn't care as much about me as I cared about them. The blunt fix here is to change your social circles. Not easy, but doable, slowly, over time.
The "interesting hobby" part of the charisma training actually helps there to connect to different groups of people.
I second this. Make sure you’re in the right “layer” because this mismatch can induce the described avoidance/insignificance. And even if you want to stay there (which is absolutely fine) don’t take it as a global thing. Different groups may value completely different behavior patterns.
Try asking people questions and show interest and concern for their well-being. Observe other group’s rituals and pay respect to their customs. Then to capture people’s attention speak in terms of stories that they know, but switch up a few details, to make the conclusion refreshing and exciting.
Ask this question to some people you trust and simulate a conversation _in person_ to get feedback.
Contact me (bio) and I'll have a 10 minute call with you if you'd like.
As others have mentioned: tone, pacing, modulation, content ... these could all contribute, but I don't think you'd be able to know unless you really analysed a video or audio recording with someone.
Here's a few things that may help:
1) Get a voice coach and do a few lessons
2) Join an acting class
3) Take a clip from a movie and re-enact it. Record yourself and play it back to see the difference, you might pick up a few things.
When I think back to all the socialites in my life who've had the gift of commanding peoples' attention, they could talk about the most meaningless things and somehow make it engaging and entertaining. Like a talk show host who can crack a funny joke about any subject. Not saying you have to be a comedian, just saying that holding peoples' attention is more about your demeanor, tonality and vibe - not so much about the contents of what you say.
When we interject with relatable stories, it can often appear to the listener that we are taking what they just said and turning into a narrative about ourselves. Defeating this takes practice, since the good intention is not necessarily to talk about yourself, but to signal that you understand what the speaker is sharing.
The easiest way I have found to avoid this is by asking questions, instead of telling my own story, but basing my questions on my experience. To use your travel example, if someone is telling you a story about a place you have been to, ask them what they thought about a specific attraction you have also visited without mentioning you visited it, giving them the opportunity to continue sharing rather than turning the spotlight on your experience. I that moment, it's about them.
Perhaps you could record yourself talking, and then listen to yourself: found out what might make you feel this way if you were the other person.
Often, people listen others only to respond and tell their point, more than they listen to understand what is being said. (This leads to people cutting each other, sadly).
This leads to the point of saying things that are interesting for the listeners ("What's in it for them?").
I've personally seen people ask a question, and get the answer, but the person giving that answer keeps on going for too long with too many extra details.
Most of the time people are not having a conversation to share information, but instead to fulfill one of their psychological needs. This can include having fun, feeling connection, gaining social approval, gaining direct benefit, something like this. What this psychological need is changes person by person and moment by moment. It can be hard to determine but it can be done!
The other psychological motivator is fear of loss. It’s simply the truth that people don’t want to be dragged in to boring conversations by people with low self-esteem, because everyone is busy and time is precious.
It seems a very simple way to analyze conversation, but it’s very powerful to do what people like and don’t do what they don’t like. Notice how this framework in itself has nothing to do with your enunciation, language barriers, body language, and so on. It’s all about reading the other person!
I recommend reading “The Psychology of Sales” by Brian Tracy. It’s nominally about being a salesperson, but you can apply it to practically any social situation. Because what is socializing really about other than mutual benefit? You know already that you want to talk about traveling, and once you figure out what other people need from the conversation everyone will be happy!
Since you are having this issue with your wife you should ask your wife, hopefully she might have the guts to tell you her real honest opinion on the matter.
Thats all i can come up with..
> 5 Aspects of a Powerful Speaking Voice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE7QJSO449o
It's a short video but it really resonated with me and helped me make a lot of actionable changes in how I speak (in a professionally setting at least).
There’s probably many things you could experiment with. My suggestion for a simple start would be to reframe from “when I try to contribute” to “how can I help someone continue the conversation?”.
So for your travel example, people may not want a second retelling of what they just heard. But what if instead you asked “did you get to see X? What did you think of it?”. It shows the speaker you were listening and engaged, gives them the opportunity to continue their story, and gives you both the opportunity to have a shared experience.
What I might suggest is a different approach, though not mutually exclusive. There seems to be a strong emotional undertone to your question that leads me to believe you’re not just looking for ways to improve your speach but also grappling with existential questions about your place and value. For those I would suggest you seek out a therapist and start speaking with them as transparently as possible about your thoughts and feelings, so that you can work through those issues (insofar as they exist).
Some things that helped me:
- I grew a beared that accentuated my jawline
- When people would begin to interrupt me, I would continue on with my sentence regardless of them speaking, and I would finish my sentence. I would be prepared to let it get a little awkward if they don’t get the hint at first
- Talking a lot more helped. Since having a baby, I talk to her all the time. I sing and talk loudly and energetically to her to make her laugh. I make up a wide array of characters with voices. This has changed the tone of my voice in that it is now deeper, less strained, and more powerful. I have noticed a difference in my confidence talking to people and how they listen to me.
- I noticed a difference in my interactions just after doing Yoga or meditation. Conversation is often about energy, and yoga or meditation can get you more attuned to giving the right amount.
- I noticed the less I cared the easier it got. I make sure that I am respectful and acknowledging of people, I am open and receptive to connecting with the right people, but it’s not my mission to be entertaining or interesting to others.
- If I feel like I am giving a lot more to the other person/people in the interactions, I start to look elsewhere for people that are more reciprocal with their interactions.
- I tried reading books on charisma, small talk, How to Win Friends and Influence People, etc. I don’t think any of this actually had much impact or it didn’t resonate with me. IMO, going to the gym is probably going to have a lot more impact to get people to listen to you than what books can offer.
All I'm getting at is that if there's a silver bullet I haven't found it.
Perhaps take a recording of someone you find engaging to listen to, and record yourself and really play spot the difference.
besides the fact that todays society is way less capable to focus on long texts (spoken or read) but trained to constantly consume a permanent stream of quick, short, easy pieces, there may some points you can actually do yourself.
check the way you speak. intelligent people tend to speak like written texts, trying to perfectly formulate their speech, to be correct, not to be misunderstood, to respect complex correlations...thus producing complex monologues, strenous to follow. combined with monotonous sound it can be really narcotic to listeners. natural language is not for that. natural language is for dialogues. also "nerds" tend to focus on matter-of-fact texts, only, while interhuman communication is way more, happens on way more levels. don't underestimate the non-verbal communication! it happens, if talkers are aware of it, want to, or not.
respect your audiance; don't underestimate them. some tend to always explain elaborated every single detail for no reason. this not only produces superfluid text but make your listeners feel you think they're stupid. let them ask if they don't understand. try to involve them into your thoughts, to do the talking more interacting.
is what you're going to tell as important or fascinating to others as it's for you? also my wive fades out often when I talk; I am highly interested in technical stuff. she being from liberal arts is not. but when the topic is real important like relationship stuff she's always full online, and I benefit a lot about the things where she's more improved as me.
besides to simplify your speech, you may loosen it up, consider to put some - few, light - entertainment elements in, maybe even a joke - even in experts talks.
the lesser one speaks, the more focus he or she gets if she or he says something.
this can be elaborated way longer - but this is neither the place, nor right medium to do it.
so, the most important point:
don't take it personal, and above all not too serious. if you start to think it's because people think less of you, disrespect, or reject you, this may lead into depression. and it's wrong. most of the times it's simply people don't want to listen - to anybody. most people don't want to listen, they want to talk. for the rest: even simple rethoric workshops help a lot. check for evening classes or similar.
First, let’s be clear that some people are just sociopaths and assholes. If you were only speaking to empaths that listen well and deeply cared for your contributions in their entirety this problem would almost never arise and would be an accident when it does arise. So, let’s just focus on the assholes.
People interrupt you for typically selfish reasons, because they stopped listening to you want just want to hear their own voice out loud. That could be due to impatience, possibly autism or ADHD, or it could be because they don’t value you. This is especially tough when it comes from people that love you.
1. The most immediate solution is to dominate with assertiveness. When somebody cuts you off call it out. Be confrontational and directly identify the problem and that you don’t like it. This doesn’t have be impolite but must be firm and immediate. This will solve the problem most of the time because the person cutting you is probably unaware of their behavior, how you feel, and has probably done this to you multiple times in the past.
If the person challenges you then remain firm without excuses. Most people aren’t prepared for confrontation and will back off, but if they are an asshole the only goal is to embarrass them in public. You don’t need to embarrass them as their behavior will speak for itself. You just need to remain firm without excuses or compromise.
2. If you are squeezed out of conversation by people that aren’t listening you can always walk away. If you walk away and nobody notices then they were never listening to you in the first place. Any attempt to interject yourself will be a Pyrrhic victory that wastes your energy and erodes your credibility unless your goal is to start a fight. This is especially true in echo chambers.
If you walk away and somebody does notice it’s on them to determine what’s of higher value: you or the group. Let them own that choice. Later it’s up to you how to handle that, but you must handle it or let yourself continue to be a doormat.
3. Be aggressive. This always works but rarely in a positive way. I really recommend saving this as a last case scenario. When this happens if your first response is to punch someone in the face other people around you will get the message but at the same time nobody will want to engage with you. You are too intimidating and if you are not prepared for a fight could get your ass kicked if they are equally aggressive. But, this always works. As an example I recommend a movie called The Green Book.
In group conversations, people don't care what you are interested in. They just want to hear where their interest lies at the beginning of the conversation. Once you catch their attention, they'll start giving input. Now it's your time to align their inputs with what you are interested in.
In public speaking and conversations like TED Talks and conferences, the communication methods are completely different.
However, the thing that really helped me, is to actually focus on telling a story or anecdote. A story should have a single insight and it should be about you, something that changed the way you think, or something that has been funny or profound.
The best books on that is Storyworthy by Matthew Dicks.
My rough playbook:
- make opportunities for people to talk. Ask them things they can talk about at length. People who feel heard are more likely to listen
- create social opportunities where participation doesn't rely on talking. Cinema, games, walks etc.
- value 1:1 meetings. The dynamics are very different.
- really value groups and people with whom interactions are effortlessly fun. There's a limited supply of people like that in my life, so I really cherish and appreciate them
It often feels like I'm providing more than 1/N of the effort and less than 1/N of the reward. But I concluded that
- I still prefer that to no social interactions
- it might be a perception thing. Everyone always feels like they are doing more than their fair share
As to why I happens to you... Maybe you happen to like people with particular characteristics? Also bear in mind, if there are N people and everyone speaks for 1/N of the time, actually that's very little time per person - but for me for example, instinctively I feel under-heard unless I'm talking 25-30%+ of the time.
As to your wife, you can just directly explain to her that in general you expect to be heard and paid attention to, just as you listen and pay attention to her. Or ask her what about your interaction leads to such attention lapses.
This lady, however, might speak your language: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHUrdELKjDw
There are a lot of quick, easily actionable tips in that conversation, combined with much more long term 'mindset' advice as well.
A friend infrequently would end lackluster stories, those where he'd lost the conversational baton, with "...and then I found $20."
Anyone who had never heard the trick immediately perked up and refocused their attention on him. He'd say, "No, not really" then briefly contribute something more to the conversation before yielding.
Everyone who knew the trick knew to wait for the ending, because one could never assume his story endings anymore.
1. I'm a small person, and in America, I've observed, or think I have, that there's a daddy culture here and a lot of people respect size more than content. This may simply be frustrated cynicism though. But I sincerely think I might be a dumb looking person too.
2. I've a weak voice and it doesn't carry well.
3. To some degree, it is a choice of company. That might be difficult to consider in some cases, eg the wife, but I don't bother with people who don't listen, unless it's necessary. I try to be very accommodating to others when they communicate.
4. To some extent it's not you. Low attention spans are becoming more and more pervasive. Social elegance isn't much in style right now. Also, with a culture of sensory or information overload, many people are generally aloof.
5. Try to eliminate discourse particles. Unfortunately this might compound the problem in circles where "like" is used as punctuation, adjectives, verbs, nouns and pretty much as a monosyllable language consisting of tonal variations. But at least you can keep your dignity while they squeak back and forth with their one word.
6. Timing. As a product of cold, callous patience.
Edit: Another possibly worthy consideration is gestures, primarily but not exclusively, I imagine, with the hands. Think magician, or conductor. Many people are becoming more visual. Some may even require certain visual stimulation to function. And maybe there could be some strange subconscious threat factors in the background, promoting increased alertness. And if that fails, you'll be well warmed up in the event you must resort to violence.
1. When it is about them (nobody really cares about you voice or body language), when there is something valuable or a solid promise of value in your words. Personally for them. (For example when they asked you a question they really need an answer to).
2. … hmmm no, sorry I can’t think of anything else.
Therefore to really solve your problem - focus on the meaning, not on the surface level crap like faking your voice to sound this and that (ive been there, waste of time).
Meaning == why exactly and what message exactly do you want to be heard? Why is this important for you? In general and in particular situations.
If you don’t have solid answers for yourself - its only natural that nobody else cares of what you say.
If you dont have natural artistic abilities - you can of course develop them to some degree, but again without real meaning and value behind your words - it’s gonna be weak.
Maybe your natural way of communication is to be a silent type, who doesn’t waste words, but makes each one spoken valuable.
Humans do pay attention to captivating stories that are not about them. But of course there’s gotta be something in that story they can relate to.
I have no idea what specific things I do to be heard, but I almost have the opposite problem. People listen to me when they really shouldn't.
Being in the environment I was in as a kid forged me into this unignorable person, because if I ever wanted to be heard in my family it was a fight to the death. My default talking stance is apparently really aggressive and commanding.
Yes it was LOUD in my house all the time, yes my poor mother, yes I still have issues to work through.
https://www.amazon.com/Charisma-Myth-Science-Personal-Magnet...
Seriously, I've had/have similar issues. Seems like maybe you don't project credibility within your groups? No fault of your own. Other commenters have touched on this but people really like to talk about themselves. A skill that I've tried to hone is going into "talk show" mode where I'm the host and I ask light, easy (and hopefully interesting) questions of someone else relative to what they are discussing. After doing this a bit, sometimes you can work your way into participating in the conversations in other ways. Like talking about your experience. It's not fair and I feel for you.
You can't expect others to want to hear your monologues about travel, they will cut you off to progress the conversation.
Instead of trying to hijack the other person's travel comment, confirm them like "Oh yea, I liked that place too!" in piece-meal fashion. People dislike when they notice you are trying shift the focus like you described.
Small speeches is boring, unless you have interesting stuff to share. You also being on a trip to the same place is not very exciting.
Be curious about the others and pay attention.
Follow up on stuff later, like "how did it go at the dentist?". People like when you remember things about their life.
What is interesting to you may not to be to them.
Maybe they just don’t like you (a larger social problem to solve)
Like not being able to join a discussion and more doing a very slow story telling
Sure, people love talking about themselves. But you don't even pretend that a conversation is anything but an opportunity for talking about yourself. Why do you believe that anyone would like to talk to someone like that?
Even in your example you say how annoying it is that someone interrupts you and talks about themselves, but somehow you ignore that you did the exact same thing just a minute earlier.
You aren't trying to have a conversation. You are trying to talk about yourself and people react exactly how you would expect.
>I think the saddest part of all this is that even my wife's attention drifts off most of the time I try to talk to her.
Me too.
Notice, that he never mentions asking people questions, initiating conversations or anything besides interjecting himself into a conversation to talk about himself.
All I am assuming is that the things OP writes are his typical behavior and how we would typically behave in conversations.
Seriously, he describes himself interrupting a conversation to talk about himself and immediately there after complains that someone else interrupted him to talk about themselves. I do not know what a benevolent interpretation of that could be. If you have one, please tell me. It definitely can't be ignorance.
People may debate something, exchange information, talk about common interests or events affecting them, joke around or do many other things.
No, it's other people, not you. Most people are self-absorbed jerks who only love the sound of their own voice. The only reason they are not listening to you is because your are "low" (in one sense or another) in the social hierarchy of people around you. Being good-looking, well-dressed, rich, slim, or athletic helps...
Book: "Power Talk: Using Language to Build Authority and Influence" (2001) https://g.co/kgs/6L8MxNy
- Speaking from the edge, Speaking from the center
"From Comfort Zone to Performance Management" (2009) https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C43&q=%E2... .. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32786594 :
> The ScholarlyArticle also suggests management styles for each stage (Commanding, Cooperative, Motivational, Directive, Collaborative); and suggests that team performance is described by chained power curves of re-progression through these stages
The surefire way to seem boring is to be in your own head all the time. The only time you should be "inside your head" during a conversation is to achieve point #1 above. "Hmm, how can I say this next thought without "I" or "me"? Otherwise, you should be mentally projecting yourself out of your head into their story.
Try to make 90% of the conversation about them. Even if you are boring, you can seem interesting just by telling someone about themselves. To "hype" yourself for conversations, you need to tell yourself "I'm going to talk to this person specifically to envision myself in their story, feeling what they feel."
Lastly, some people tend to be very "tunnel vision" in conversations. It makes people seem really bland, stiff, transactional. It's much more fun to remind yourself before a conversation that "it's cool to see if I can identify small gestures or body language to get "more insight" into the person." Which means to look around, look at the person.
Related to the above, being able to gesture with hands, feet, and body convey a certain "relaxed-ness". If you are back inside your own head, use that as a chance to tell yourself to move your hands, gesture, etc. when talking.
Bring excitement (facial expressions, hand gestures, exciting voice) when you speak and notice how attention shifts to you.
I pay more attention to people who speak less often.
Additionally, I think you might be making the mistake of sharing your experiences in a way that you think makes you relatable, when really unintentionally you may be coming across self-centred. It’s something I used to do all the time, and something I still unintentionally do from time to time. Instead of trying to be relatable by sharing your own experiences, perhaps try and ask people engaging questions that suggest you have had an experience, but don’t explicitly state what it was… like for example, perhaps you visited some tourist destination, that someone else also visited… instead of explaining your whole experience, maybe ask a question like “what did you think of the [insert subject matter] at [tourist destination]?” People like to talk about themselves a lot. I find people like talking to you more when you seem more interested in them, rather than more interested in talking about yourself… if that makes sense?
https://www.toastmastersd69.org/online-toastmasters-clubs/?g...