Why China is losing interest in English
20 points by teractiveodular a day ago | 25 comments
  • teractiveodular a day ago |
  • yorwba a day ago |
  • throw310822 a day ago |
    > According to one ranking, by EF Education First, an international language-training firm, China ranks 91st among 116 countries and regions in terms of English proficiency. Just four years ago it ranked 38th out of 100.

    That doesn't make much sense, unless millions of people forgot a language in 4 years.

    • fifth-column a day ago |
      It could make sense if they’re looking at a cohort of students.
    • alephnerd a day ago |
      EF's dataset is students who take EF tests (eg. TOEFL). What this degradation means is that TOEFL scores are much lower.

      This makes sense because there's less of a need to travel abroad for studies, and it has also become much more difficult for Chinese nationals to study abroad over the past 4 years (eg. Zero COVID from 2020-2023, Visa restrictions in the US).

      Edit: The TOEFL's methodology has also changed to actually test for speaking and writing fluency. Before, the TOEFL would overindex reading skills, but not speaking and writing.

      • kelipso a day ago |
        Always know where the data comes from! I see so many examples of people generalizing to the whole population of a country when the data comes from a specific subset.
      • yorwba 19 hours ago |
        EF does not administer the TOEFL, but a competing English test, the EF SET, which can be taken online for free.

        When fewer people take a test, I would expect the average score to go up, since the people who do take it are likely more motivated.

        But it's all within the range of historical variation anyway.

        https://www.ef.com/wwen/epi/regions/asia/china/

        • alephnerd 18 hours ago |
          Doh! Good callout. Confused ETS with EF!

          And this is even a good point as well - the EF SET isn't really used in most cases where English fluency is critical (eg. College admissions in the West, Citizenship/PR applications in much of the Commonwealth, etc), so the kinds of students taking EF specific tests might be less prepared or knowledgeable about English and Western culture compared to those preparing for TOEFL or IELTS.

    • fredfoo a day ago |
      If China were to stay exactly the same it would be dropping relatively at a pretty fast rate..
    • dzonga a day ago |
      easily happens in homogenous populations where people speak the same language. even if they learn english at school - and they don't have foreigners to speak it with - they will lose ability to converse in english.

      before video games and other popular culture things would help people learn / keep practicing a language but now china has a vibrant video games market e.g black myth wukong.

      saw it happen in taiwan.

    • inglor_cz 18 hours ago |
      It is unlikely that they test a sample of the entire population. They likely test students of certain age only, and three years of Covid lockdowns (China held on to Zero Covid for a long time!) probably messed with the current cohort.
  • NemoNobody a day ago |
    I don't kno how much I believe this. I think the Chinese government would love for this to be true and maybe the US government too.

    I interact with a fair amount of Chinese people online - always in English.

    Chinese people seem to be like to be everyone else and like that they can communicate with people from everywhere. It's understood by everyone that English is the Global language - this is just trying to present China as so elitist that the population expects us all to learn Mandarin now to talk to them - that hasn't been the case in my experience.

    Plus, I watch a fair amount of Asian media and Chinese media always has English subtitles on their shows. They are aware that I watch them - China is trying be more of a cultural power rn and that's all bc of English so...

    I just don't kno how much I believe this.

    • stonesthrowaway a day ago |
      > I think the Chinese government would love for this to be true and maybe the US government too.

      Why?

      > Chinese people seem to be like to be everyone else and like that they can communicate with people from everywhere.

      Do you think that's what people want? I personally prefer the time when almost 100% of the people online were american. I've no real desire to speak with chinese or british or any others. I simply just assume I'm interacting with americans.

      > It's understood by everyone that English is the Global language

      It shouldn't be. There shouldn't be a global language. Chinese, Hindi, spanish, arabic, etc along with english should be major regional languages. Also, it's a waste of time for vast majority of people to learn english on a superficial level. Their time is better spent on learning their own languages. Especially a language with such rich history as chinese.

      > China is trying be more of a cultural power rn and that's all bc of English so...

      Language is one of the most important aspects of cultural power. If china wants to be a cultural power, then they should be focusing on spreading chinese, not "submitting" to english. America didn't become a cultural power by adopting french when french was lingua franca.

      > I just don't kno how much I believe this.

      It's an economist article on china, so much of it is probably nonsense. So don't let it bother you so much.

      • NemoNobody 19 hours ago |
        The Internet is so much better now that everyone is on it. I remember usenet, I kno of geocities. You shouldn't assume English speakers on the Internet are Americans, some of the better I've encountered are not. Tbh, I'm bored with an American centric point of view. I consume a lot of culture tho.

        Which is my next point. The Internet isn't the first translated thing. You said countries should focus on their own language but that's absolutely bs. As if you've never read something originally written in another language.

        I kno a fair amount of Latin from my exposure to the stuff written during the era when all intellectuals had to know Latin or Greek - should we do that again? That was nice and uniform for the Western World at least.

        For the record, by using English to make their content accessible to the global population, I have been exposed to more Chinese culture than China could ever hope. I watched Three Kingdoms and the Qin Dynasty series and the Kings War - that's over 350 hour long episodes of Chinese history I've now seen - I only knew Three Kingdoms before hand. So you are wrong about that also. Additionally, I'm developing an appreciation for Mandarin itself, as far a language goes it seems to be as expressive as English and the Chinese speak in idioms just like Americans but obviously different idioms, so I now also understand that to truly appreciate Chinese content, just like American content, I do need to know the language it was made in.

        Lastly, the US was a single vote from German being the official language of this country, it's why we have no official language now. So I disagree with direct correlation of language and culture - it's often related but not always and English is an exception as today we live in a world where English is often used by people from countries that do not speak English to do business with other countries that do not speak English.

        • epoxia 14 hours ago |
          The "factoid" about the German vote is false. It was a vote to adjourn the discussion. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-german-vote/
        • stonesthrowaway 10 hours ago |
          > The Internet is so much better now that everyone is on it

          No it's not.

          > You shouldn't assume English speakers on the Internet are Americans,

          Until fairly recently, almost everyone ( not just english speakers ) were american.

          > For the record, by using English to make their content accessible to the global population, I have been exposed to more Chinese culture than China could ever hope.

          The vast majority of the global population does not speak or understand english. It's strange how people with agenda make shit up. You write like a journalist. Also, what does this have anything to do with chinese people learning english? Surely chinese people can appreciate chinese culture in their own language?

          > Lastly, the US was a single vote from German being the official language of this country

          Dumbest thing I've ever read. A simple search shows it is dumb myth. Are you even american?

          > it's why we have no official language now.

          We have no official language because all the original 13 colonies were british colonies populated predominantly by british peoples - english, scots, irish. There was no need for it because everyone spoke english. All the documents were written in english. What language do you think the declaration of independence was written in?

          It's remarkable how stupid some people on hacker news truly are. Imagine being stupid enough to believe 13 british colonies would get together and make german the national language. Especially when there were anti-german sentiment during the 1700s.

          • justinclift an hour ago |
            > Until fairly recently

            What do you call "fairly recently"?

            Plenty of non-Americans have been on the internet before 2000, many even from the early 1990s though I'm not sure how much earlier than that had widespread non-US usage.

      • inglor_cz 18 hours ago |
        "It shouldn't be. There shouldn't be a global language."

        That is like claiming there should be no global Internet or no global trade.

        People like to interact with one another, for various reasons: business, science, mere curiosity. Having the globe split into several mutually non-communicating regions would be weird, especially if all it takes is a few clicks on a computer to get "somewhere else". And in absence of hard barriers in North Korean style, one dominant way of communication is likely to emerge.

        • stonesthrowaway 10 hours ago |
          > That is like claiming there should be no global Internet or no global trade.

          There is no such thing as a global internet. The internet is just a bunch of separate networks. Of course this being "hacker news" you wouldn't know what the internet is.

          There is no such thing as global trade. There are a bunch of trade relations between regions and countries.

          > People like to interact with one another, for various reasons: business, science, mere curiosity.

          People like to interact with their own for the most part.

          > Having the globe split into several mutually non-communicating regions would be weird,

          Where did I say this? It's amazing how people are so stupid that they think you need english for people to communicate with each other. Do you think japanese and chinese people didn't communicate each other before english? Or russians and germans without english?

          > And in absence of hard barriers in North Korean style, one dominant way of communication is likely to emerge.

          No. The historical norm is major regional languages. Not one dominant language enforced on the world primarily through military supremacy.

          • inglor_cz 5 hours ago |
            The first part of your answer is like saying that there is nothing like forest, just individual trees, shrubs and animals. Feel free to ignore the networking effects, but they still exist.

            Historical norm is indeed "major regional languages", but the historical norm is also "travelling with horse and buggy" and "a letter takes weeks if not months to reach another continent". These limitations is what limited reaches of any language to a single region or two. These limitations are now gone, and the Internet and fast travel methods like jets have connected previously separated regions into one huge region called the Earth.

            And the claim of military supremacy is bullshit. The vast majority of people decides to learn English because two billion other people speak English and a ton of useful information is published in English. It is economically advantageous to nearly anyone to be fluent in English.

            It helps that the script is easy to master, just 26 letters. That is a major downside of the Chinese script, it is really hard to master.

  • danbolt 20 hours ago |
    I’m reminded of a 2000s interview I watched with Hideo Kojima, a famous video game director. Kojima’s well-known for being influenced by western cinema, and in the interview he expressed that this is more common for people his age. He said he felt younger Japanese people tended to be more interested in Japan’s domestic media.

    Maybe this is also a result of China being more developed and having a domestic market for its culture? Or, like, twenty years ago, I could imagine a lot of foreign media just had bigger budgets and writing, but today that’s less of the case.

    • scotty79 19 hours ago |
      > He said he felt younger Japanese people tended to be more interested in Japan’s domestic media.

      It might be just regression to mean that after curious and open global oriented generation more likely comes one that's more isolationist and more easily satiated with domestic slop.

      • danbolt 18 hours ago |
        Sturgeon's law applies everywhere, so I’d be hesitant to simply suggest that people are just satiated with slop. That said, I do think this is a domestic “regression to the mean” like you suggest.

        Or, if you wanted to enjoy fun video games in China in the 90s and 00s, your favourite stuff might have more likely been a pirated copy of Age of Empires II. The cream of the crop was coming from foreign powerhouses. Just this past year though, there’s a blockbuster Journey to the West action game made in China. I can imagine it’s a more accessible way of playing big-budget video games since the language and culture are more familiar.

        In some ways, it reminds me of the console game crash of the 80s and Japanese software being very dominant in the United States until the late 90s and 2000s. The stuff from Japan was a little more foreign, but it was very good. Now though, western AAA games make up more of your average American’s playtime than they did in the past.

    • maxglute 18 hours ago |
      I wonder if that's why weaponizing language was key plotpoint of mgsv.

      PRC is consuming more PRC content (i.e. HK/TW use to be sinosphere media power houses).

      There's also consideration that documentation from science to technical papers are in Chinese now, less need for people to need English for variety of tasks.

  • matrix87 20 hours ago |
    doesn't teaching english lead to more brain drain?