The Chaos (1922)
73 points by devvvvvvv 21 hours ago | 26 comments
  • tempodox 12 hours ago |
    A well deserved slap in the face of the English language, delivered with splendor.
    • nine_k 11 hours ago |
      But it says little about the English language proper, things like syntax, the system of verb tenses, or even phonetics. It's only about the spelling, and specifically the hodgepodge of various historical spellings, and the tendency to import a word with its foreign spelling and foreign pronunciation. Chunks of Romance languages, mostly Latin and French, stick out as especially noticeable: things like "bona fide", or "corps", or even "beauty".

      Most languages in which the connection between the written form and the sound is straightforward, like Spanish or Japanese, import foreign words by writing down the sound and ignoring the original spelling. The problem is that in Britain, French was directly spoken and written for centuries, and for a person who speaks and writes French daily, it would be rather jarring to write "bohteh" instead of "beauté" or "ko" instead of "corps". To have a taste of that, trai tu rait inglish fonetikalli. It's an attempt to avoid that what has driven us to the current situation.

    • dinkumthinkum 6 hours ago |
      Isn’t wild that if you said that sentence about why other language, particular, a non-Western one, this would be considered hate speech? It’s interesting how language works.
      • ben_w 5 hours ago |
        People are generally given a free pass to criticise their own in-group.

        There's a famous Chinese poem demonstrating an issue in the Chinese language, IIRC spelling reform; but were I to speak it (I can't*) I suspect anyone who couldn't speak Chinese would think I was mocking the language despite the original being from a native speaker:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-Eating_Poet_in_the_Stone_...

        * I lack the skill to tell if this is correct pronunciation: https://youtu.be/vExjnn_3ep4?si=hbg3b3niapF6X4TH

        • dinkumthinkum 4 hours ago |
          Well, my point is more that you can specifically criticize Western culture even in degrading terms from any group, and it is fine.
  • orjpap 12 hours ago |
    Early MF Doom verse
  • z3phyr 12 hours ago |
    I would love to listen to an Eminem rendition of this poem as a rap.
    • codechicago277 10 hours ago |
      With suno.com this would be quick to create
      • bongodongobob 6 hours ago |
        Nah, it's too long. You can do it but it's going to be a pain trying to extend and add different lyrics. Would probably be a full evening of work, multiple tries per section.
  • petercooper 11 hours ago |
    A similar one but a bit more entry level. Good for confusing the kids with: http://holyjoe.org/poetry/anonA.htm
  • Gimpei 11 hours ago |
    Wait, made and bade are pronounced differently? Is this an anglicism or have I been doing it wrong?
    • j-h-k 10 hours ago |
      • 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 10 hours ago |
        Is this gonna be like "pin" and "pen" where everyone insists they're different but they sound the same to me?
        • pxeger1 9 hours ago |
          What’s your accent/dialect?
          • 867-5309 4 hours ago |
            I smell a kiwi
  • teddyh 10 hours ago |
    Complete version as originally published in 1920: <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Chaos>
    • jrmg 9 hours ago |
      There’s a thorough explanation of the history of the poem and the research that went into rediscovering the author of the poem and [re?]producing the ‘final’ version presented in the article - scroll down to after the poem.

      The conclusion is that “This version is essentially the author's own final text, as also published by New River Project in 1993” (so ‘1922’ in the page title and link text is arguably wrong, or at least misleading).

  • csours 10 hours ago |
    Reading and writing are different transformations - they are not complementary or inverse - they are just different.

    Phonics gives you some clues to remember a word, context gives you other clues. Eventually, you may learn what kinds of words come from Latin, Greek, and French, and those are more clues. But before those clues do anything at all for you, you have to care and want to read.

    Four righting ewe jest halve two remmemmber thee spellin.

    > "There's an idea about how children learn to read that's held sway in schools for more than a generation — even though it was proven wrong by cognitive scientists decades ago. Teaching methods based on this idea can make it harder for children to learn how to read."

    https://features.apmreports.org/sold-a-story/ (and hn discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35599181 )

    > "Lucy Calkins was an education superstar. Now she’s cast as the reason a generation of students struggles to read. Can she reclaim her good name?"

    Gift link: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2024/12/lucy-ca...

  • pavlov 7 hours ago |
    English spelling could be significantly improved by adding a few optional accents. They could be purely additive: the ASCII spellings would remain valid for those who prefer to use them.

    Native English speakers don’t seem to quite grasp how difficult the spelling is. I’ve been using this language for thirty years and I sometimes forget how some basic words are pronounced because I mostly write it.

    There’s no need to change physical keyboards. In the smartphone era, most English around the world is already being typed using soft keyboards and autocomplete. A spelling reform could be agreed between Google, Apple and Microsoft. They are the de facto equivalent of Académie Française for the English language, even if they don’t use that power.

    Here’s my basic suggestion for the optional accent marks:

    A long vowel is marked with an acute accent. The sound is simply the one you’re familiar with from how the alphabet is pronounced. This lets us distinguish between léad (the verb) and lead (the metal), live (the verb) and líve (as in streaming), lów and how, féar and bear, bléak and break, infinite and fíníte, etc.

    It also fixes the spelling of many loan words that look like the final e would be silent and today you just have to know it’s not: catastrophé, epitomé, Eurydicé, etc.

    This easy rule doesn’t nearly cover all the weird vowel spellings, but it already fixes a substantial part of the worst obstacles for English learners.

    Two more accent marks could be deployed:

    The macron is already familiar to Japanese learners. It’s a long version of the short vowel sound, as in Ōsaka. The spelling of many English loan words could be unified by deploying the macron consistently. It would allow replacing é with ē in French loan words like fiancē.

    The grave accent could be used to assign a third vowel sound, but it’s not as obvious what this should be. As an example, maybe for the letter A, it could be the sound in words like àll and hàul and àwe. Again, the point would be to give a consistent and useful hint of a sound that doesn’t follow the basic rules, not to make the spelling perfect in one stroke.

    • dullcrisp 6 hours ago |
      This seems like a good idea that isn't likely to catch on widely, but could maybe be deployed in places like the Simple English Wikipedia and other contexts where non-native English speakers are a major part of the target audience.
    • pushedx 3 hours ago |
      You have joined a time honored tradition of attempting to fix English spelling https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-language_spelling_re...
    • akovaski 3 hours ago |
      > Native English speakers don’t seem to quite grasp how difficult the spelling is.

      We're well aware. This is why we have spelling competitions and why spellcheck is included everywhere. Native English speakers regularly use spellcheck. Some people even forego standard English spelling and just spell stuff as they want.

      There are many things I could say about optionally adding accents to clarify some vowel pronunciations, but the worst case scenario would probably be if it actually gained traction. https://xkcd.com/927/

  • dav_Oz 6 hours ago |
    Looking at extreme examples of historical spelling (e.g. Tibetan) English isn't particularly bad, even in the context of Great Britain, e.g Manx [0] is way more off.

    [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manx_language#Spelling_to_so...

    • bradrn 5 hours ago |
      English is itself an extreme example of historical spelling. Tibetan, Mongolian and French are bad, but English is just as bad if not worse.

      (Manx is terrible, but for different reasons: its orthography was designed by English-speakers!)

  • ChrisMarshallNY 3 hours ago |
    Reminds me of this:

    ODE TO A SPELL CHECKER

    by Jerrold H Zar

    Eye halve a spelling check her,

    It came with my pea sea.

    It plane lee marks four my revue

    Miss steaks aye kin knot sea.

    Eye ran this poem threw it,

    Your sure reel glad two no.

    Its vary polished in it’s weigh,

    My checker tolled me sew.

    A check her is a bless sing;

    It freeze yew lodes of thyme.

    It helps me right awl stiles two reed,

    And aides me when aye rime.

    Each frays come posed up on my screen,

    Eye trussed too bee a joule;

    The checker pours o’er every word

    To cheque sum spelling rule.

    Bee fore wee rote with checkers

    Hour spelling was inn deck line,

    Butt now when wee dew have a laps,

    Wee are knot maid too wine.

    Butt now bee cause my spelling

    Is checked with such grate flare,

    There are know faults with in my cite,

    Of nun eye am a wear.

    Now spelling does knot phase me,

    It does knot bring a tier;

    My pay purrs awl due glad den

    With wrapped words fare as hear.

    To rite with care is quite a feet

    Of witch won should be proud;

    And we mussed dew the best wee can

    Sew flaws are knot aloud.

    That’s why eye brake in two averse

    Cuz eye dew want too please.

    Sow glad eye yam that aye did bye

    This soft wear four pea seas.

  • robertheadley 3 hours ago |
    I like reading this one outloud, usually only the first few paragraphs,